Talk:Public Survey Views - Revision history

Tammo at 12:23, 6 September 2016

2016-09-06T12:23:40Z

LouisGac: /* Overriding views */

2016-09-06T12:04:32Z

Overriding views

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:04, 6 September 2016
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	'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : I think you're missing the point. View override give you the possibility to create virtual new question types (like "workarounds"). There is nothing like ''views should be so good that a user should never feel the need to override'' : If you want to change the Gender question from a radio select to buttons, you need to change the HTML, and if you change the HTML via JavaScript: it can became extremely heavy. In the future, this will be done via question objects. You'll can create new question objects, overriding the old question types or creating new question types, and rendering their own HTML. For now, the view override give you the possibility to do it without using JavaScript to hack the dom. When question objects will be ready (far in the future), you'll can import your view override to question object.		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : I think you're missing the point. View override give you the possibility to create virtual new question types (like "workarounds"). There is nothing like ''views should be so good that a user should never feel the need to override'' : If you want to change the Gender question from a radio select to buttons, you need to change the HTML, and if you change the HTML via JavaScript: it can became extremely heavy. In the future, this will be done via question objects. You'll can create new question objects, overriding the old question types or creating new question types, and rendering their own HTML. For now, the view override give you the possibility to do it without using JavaScript to hack the dom. When question objects will be ready (far in the future), you'll can import your view override to question object.


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	Did I understand this right, or am I missing something?		Did I understand this right, or am I missing something?

	'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Most of it is ok. Just, you're confused between what are templates and what are view. '''Your idea of subtemplating is extremely good. For what now are "views", it will become Yii Module Nesting (class inheritance) of Question Objects.'''		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Most of it is ok. Just, you're confused between what are templates and what are view. '''Your idea of subtemplating is extremely good. For what now are "views", it will become Yii Module Nesting (class inheritance) of Question Objects.'''

LouisGac: /* PeterEmil's vision */

2016-09-06T12:04:06Z

PeterEmil's vision

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:04, 6 September 2016
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	Working on our template for LimeSurvey 2.50 gave some serious issues which we like to address. As a designer / fronted developer my religion is to work as clean as possible. When the core or the base of a program is clean and without overrides it is a joy to work with and easy extendable. There is no need to put styling in HTML or depend on JS to create a basic style.		Working on our template for LimeSurvey 2.50 gave some serious issues which we like to address. As a designer / fronted developer my religion is to work as clean as possible. When the core or the base of a program is clean and without overrides it is a joy to work with and easy extendable. There is no need to put styling in HTML or depend on JS to create a basic style.

	'''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Totally agree. We come from qanda helper: >10000 lines of code, with mixed HTML, PHP, JS, CSS. Right now, it's yet much cleaner, but still could be cleaner.		:: '''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Totally agree. We come from qanda helper: >10000 lines of code, with mixed HTML, PHP, JS, CSS. Right now, it's yet much cleaner, but still could be cleaner.


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	This core-template or base-template can be in core and - when this is possible - even not selectable from the backend; it is the master for all other templates. It’s use is for developers mainly, not the end-user.		This core-template or base-template can be in core and - when this is possible - even not selectable from the backend; it is the master for all other templates. It’s use is for developers mainly, not the end-user.

	'''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])): I hope you're not confused with what are questions views. If not, I see no reason to force a base template.		:: '''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])): I hope you're not confused with what are questions views. If not, I see no reason to force a base template.

	== Follow with: Styling from bootswatch, awesome-checkboxes, sliders and what-not. ==		== Follow with: Styling from bootswatch, awesome-checkboxes, sliders and what-not. ==

LouisGac: /* == */

2016-09-06T12:03:23Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:03, 6 September 2016
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	* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.		* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.

	'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "quiet" easily done.		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "quiet" easily done.

	* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.		* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.

	'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : same		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : same

	I realise that we will need to provide something for views that result from plugins. Drupal uses hooks and preprocess functions for that, but I am not knowledgeable enough in coding to explain that. I guess that you will grasp this concept.		I realise that we will need to provide something for views that result from plugins. Drupal uses hooks and preprocess functions for that, but I am not knowledgeable enough in coding to explain that. I guess that you will grasp this concept.
	([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : hook is probably the worst technical solution possible. Right now, LimeSurvey's plugin system is very weak an uncomplete, but can be used to override the views (Denis is doing it). In further version, the content of the views will be provided by the Question object. As same as a Joomla Template can come with modules, plugins, etc ; a template could come with its own Question Objects (overiding the exisiting ones, adding new ones, etc) , that will provide what currently is into views (and much more)		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : hook is probably the worst technical solution possible. Right now, LimeSurvey's plugin system is very weak an uncomplete, but can be used to override the views (Denis is doing it). In further version, the content of the views will be provided by the Question object. As same as a Joomla Template can come with modules, plugins, etc ; a template could come with its own Question Objects (overiding the exisiting ones, adding new ones, etc) , that will provide what currently is into views (and much more)

	Example from my Drupal adventures: I base all my work on the Drupal basic Bootstrap theme. I therefore have created a "TFR Cleanboot" theme, that has functionally all things that I need for my websites. "TFR Cleanboot" is based on the Drupal basic Bootstrap theme. All my customer themes I build based on "TFR Cleanboot". There is of course a performance issue: layering this all makes the CSS files bigger, but it is much easier for people to make their own themes. And I think that more than 90% of the surveys are for small audiences, where performace is not an issue. People that need speed, will have to use the default template or build one from scratch...		Example from my Drupal adventures: I base all my work on the Drupal basic Bootstrap theme. I therefore have created a "TFR Cleanboot" theme, that has functionally all things that I need for my websites. "TFR Cleanboot" is based on the Drupal basic Bootstrap theme. All my customer themes I build based on "TFR Cleanboot". There is of course a performance issue: layering this all makes the CSS files bigger, but it is much easier for people to make their own themes. And I think that more than 90% of the surveys are for small audiences, where performace is not an issue. People that need speed, will have to use the default template or build one from scratch...
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	* start from scratch (I wish you good luck, since we (more or less) ended up doing that, but it is a lot of work)		* start from scratch (I wish you good luck, since we (more or less) ended up doing that, but it is a lot of work)

	'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : agree		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : agree

	[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])		[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])

LouisGac: /* Extendable template */

2016-09-06T12:02:06Z

Extendable template

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:02, 6 September 2016
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	Remember: in Drupal a template is what a view is in LimeSurvey		Remember: in Drupal a template is what a view is in LimeSurvey

	~~'''Answer:'''~~
	I ([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) would strongly encourage to NOT use a strucutre like Drupal which is probably the worst possible ever (based on hook, like in the good old time of non object programming). I'd rather encourage to use a strucure like Joomla:
	* Template for all what is template in LimeSurvey (basically : the layout)
	* Modules loaded in positions for what are "views" now (they will be provided by Question object in the futur)

	~~But, I really love the idea of sub-templates, that could resolve a lot of problems about core template updates VS custom template~~

	About differences between Drupal and Joomla from a coder point of view, read the excellent article :		:: '''Answer from''' -- ([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) I would strongly encourage to NOT use a strucutre like Drupal which is probably the worst possible ever (based on hook, like in the good old time of non object programming). I'd rather encourage to use a strucure like Joomla:
	[https://www.butterfly.com.au/blog/cms/joomla-vs-drupal-a-technical-comparison-of-the-best-open-source-cms Joomla Vs. Drupal: A technical comparison of the best open source CMS]		:: * Template for all what is template in LimeSurvey (basically : the layout)
			:: * Modules loaded in positions for what are "views" now (they will be provided by Question object in the futur)

			:: But, I really love the idea of sub-templates, that could resolve a lot of problems about core template updates VS custom template

			:: About differences between Drupal and Joomla from a coder point of view, read the excellent article :
			:: [https://www.butterfly.com.au/blog/cms/joomla-vs-drupal-a-technical-comparison-of-the-best-open-source-cms Joomla Vs. Drupal: A technical comparison of the best open source CMS]

LouisGac: /* Overriding views */

2016-09-06T11:54:19Z

Overriding views

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:54, 6 September 2016
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	Did I understand this right, or am I missing something?		Did I understand this right, or am I missing something?

			'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Most of it is ok. Just, you're confused between what are templates and what are view. '''Your idea of subtemplating is extremely good. For what now are "views", it will become Yii Module Nesting (class inheritance) of Question Objects.'''

LouisGac: /* Overriding views */

2016-09-06T11:50:20Z

Overriding views

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:50, 6 September 2016
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	= Overriding views =		= Overriding views =
	As said by Peter Emil, only in very special cases you should override views, since using this possibility is dangerous: if core views are changed because of new functionality, overridden views will not reflect that. That is why this should be used with care. Actually the core views should be so good that a user should never feel the need to override.		As said by Peter Emil, only in very special cases you should override views, since using this possibility is dangerous: if core views are changed because of new functionality, overridden views will not reflect that. That is why this should be used with care. Actually the core views should be so good that a user should never feel the need to override.


			'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : I think you're missing the point. View override give you the possibility to create virtual new question types (like "workarounds"). There is nothing like ''views should be so good that a user should never feel the need to override'' : If you want to change the Gender question from a radio select to buttons, you need to change the HTML, and if you change the HTML via JavaScript: it can became extremely heavy. In the future, this will be done via question objects. You'll can create new question objects, overriding the old question types or creating new question types, and rendering their own HTML. For now, the view override give you the possibility to do it without using JavaScript to hack the dom. When question objects will be ready (far in the future), you'll can import your view override to question object.


	But, sometimes, you may want to do things different than what the developers of LS thought of when they defined the views, so then possibility of overriding views comes in handy.		But, sometimes, you may want to do things different than what the developers of LS thought of when they defined the views, so then possibility of overriding views comes in handy.
	Since views are php files and php files in views may introduce security issues, uploading templates via the template editor that contain php-files is by default not possible.		Since views are php files and php files in views may introduce security issues, uploading templates via the template editor that contain php-files is by default not possible.

LouisGac: /* Start with: Clean HTML & base template, no JS overrides */

2016-09-06T11:44:19Z

Start with: Clean HTML & base template, no JS overrides

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:44, 6 September 2016
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	This core-template or base-template can be in core and - when this is possible - even not selectable from the backend; it is the master for all other templates. It’s use is for developers mainly, not the end-user.		This core-template or base-template can be in core and - when this is possible - even not selectable from the backend; it is the master for all other templates. It’s use is for developers mainly, not the end-user.

	Answer from --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])): I hope you're not confused with what are questions views. If not, I see no reason to force a base template.		'''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])): I hope you're not confused with what are questions views. If not, I see no reason to force a base template.

	== Follow with: Styling from bootswatch, awesome-checkboxes, sliders and what-not. ==		== Follow with: Styling from bootswatch, awesome-checkboxes, sliders and what-not. ==

LouisGac: /* == */

2016-09-06T11:43:45Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:43, 6 September 2016
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	* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.		* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.

	Answer from --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "quiet" easily done.		'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "quiet" easily done.

	* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.		* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.

	Answer from --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : same		'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : same

	I realise that we will need to provide something for views that result from plugins. Drupal uses hooks and preprocess functions for that, but I am not knowledgeable enough in coding to explain that. I guess that you will grasp this concept.		I realise that we will need to provide something for views that result from plugins. Drupal uses hooks and preprocess functions for that, but I am not knowledgeable enough in coding to explain that. I guess that you will grasp this concept.
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	* start from scratch (I wish you good luck, since we (more or less) ended up doing that, but it is a lot of work)		* start from scratch (I wish you good luck, since we (more or less) ended up doing that, but it is a lot of work)

	Answer from --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : agree		'''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : agree

	[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])		[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])

LouisGac: /* PeterEmil's vision */

2016-09-06T11:42:27Z

PeterEmil's vision

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:42, 6 September 2016
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	Working on our template for LimeSurvey 2.50 gave some serious issues which we like to address. As a designer / fronted developer my religion is to work as clean as possible. When the core or the base of a program is clean and without overrides it is a joy to work with and easy extendable. There is no need to put styling in HTML or depend on JS to create a basic style.		Working on our template for LimeSurvey 2.50 gave some serious issues which we like to address. As a designer / fronted developer my religion is to work as clean as possible. When the core or the base of a program is clean and without overrides it is a joy to work with and easy extendable. There is no need to put styling in HTML or depend on JS to create a basic style.

	Answer from --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Totally agree. We come from qanda helper: >10000 lines of code, with mixed HTML, PHP, JS, CSS. Right now, it's yet much cleaner, but still could be cleaner.		'''Answer from --'''([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : Totally agree. We come from qanda helper: >10000 lines of code, with mixed HTML, PHP, JS, CSS. Right now, it's yet much cleaner, but still could be cleaner.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:23, 6 September 2016
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	[I do not know Drupal 8 yet, this uses Twig. I remember that Twig was also mentioned in the LimeSurvey community, but this seems very silent now]		[I do not know Drupal 8 yet, this uses Twig. I remember that Twig was also mentioned in the LimeSurvey community, but this seems very silent now]

	* base views are either in core (all of them at a clearly defined place) or in the base template under views (preferred by me, because then all ~~theme~~ files are together.		* base question views are either in core (all of them at a clearly defined place) or in the base template under views (preferred by me, because then all template files are together.
	* each template may either start from scratch (you then have to write all views) or rely on the core templates, with the possibility to override them		* each template may either start from scratch (you then have to write all views) or rely on the core templates, with the possibility to override them
	* a template can also be a sub-template of a sub-template.		* a template can also be a sub-template of a sub-template.

	So for example:		So for example:
	* in the default distribution there is the ~~default~~ template (in XLM file: Base=~~default~~)		* in the default distribution there is the "core template" (in XLM file: Base=self)
	* in the default distribution there are also two sub-templates of the ~~default~~ template, this is indicated in the template xml file (Base=~~default~~)		* in the default distribution there are also two sub-templates of the core template, this is indicated in the template xml file (Base=core)
	* a user can define his own template, so he has to write all views himself		* a user can define his own template, so he has to write all views himself (and in XML file: Base=self)
	* another user may define a new template based (called "my-template") on the ~~default~~ (in xml file: Base=~~default~~) and may also define three color variants (called "red", "green" and "blue"), each based on my-template by referring to that template in the xml file: Base=my-template		* another user may define a new template based (called "my-template") on the core template (in xml file: Base=core) and may also define three color variants (called "red", "green" and "blue"), each based on my-template by referring to that template in the xml file: Base=my-template

	http://themery.com/dgd7/theming/templates/override		http://themery.com/dgd7/theming/templates/override
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	:: '''Answer from''' -- ([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) I would strongly encourage to NOT use a ~~strucutre~~ like Drupal which is probably the worst possible ever (based on hook, like in the good old time of non object programming). I'd rather encourage to use a strucure like Joomla:		:: '''Answer from''' -- ([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) I would strongly encourage to NOT use a structure like Drupal which is probably the worst possible ever (based on hook, like in the good old time of non object programming). I'd rather encourage to use a strucure like Joomla:
	:: * Template for all what is template in LimeSurvey (basically : the layout)		:: * Template for all what is template in LimeSurvey (basically : the layout)
	:: * Modules loaded in positions for what are "views" now (they will be provided by Question object in the ~~futur~~)		:: * Modules loaded in positions for what are "views" now (they will be provided by Question object in the future)

	:: But, I really love the idea of sub-templates, that could resolve a lot of problems about core template updates VS custom template		:: But, I really love the idea of sub-templates, that could resolve a lot of problems about core template updates VS custom template
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	* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.		* when you choose "default" as the base theme and build your own "custom" theme on top of that, all files in the "default" theme are used and after that all files in the "custom" theme are used. So you can just override js, css, templates and so on. Therefore I would propose to put the whole views structure in that default theme and let other themes either make use of that or override it, while still using the js, css atc.

	:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "~~quiet~~" easily done.		:: '''Answer from''' --([[User:LouisGac\|LouisGac]] ([[User talk:LouisGac\|talk]])) : this idea is excellent and can be "quite" easily done.

	* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.		* I propose to make this multi-layered: based on "custom", you can make "custom-red" which uses the "custom" theme (that is based on the "default" theme) but (for example) only makes the background of the question red. This is what I believe called: child-templating and child-child-templating.
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	[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])		[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]])

	Answer from --[[User:DenisChenu\|DenisChenu]] ([[User talk:DenisChenu\|talk]]) 11:37, 22 August 2016 (CEST) : I really think it's a great idea , BUT we need some ~~cacahe~~ management for this : all HTML produced part must be cached except for EM part. When user go to the survey : LS don't have to search where is this HTML/tpl part, or this other HTML/tpl part. Find it always on runtime/tplname/.../answers.html (or tpl, not important). Cacahe management of template is done on admin part only ( for example redo whole runtime/tplname/ directory with template editor, or a button somewhere). But in fact : it's n,ot the actual purpose, maybe in 2.6. The actual purpose is only "do the best HTML in core". Update this HTML can be done after in another pull request.		Answer from --[[User:DenisChenu\|DenisChenu]] ([[User talk:DenisChenu\|talk]]) 11:37, 22 August 2016 (CEST) : I really think it's a great idea , BUT we need some cache management for this : all HTML produced part must be cached except for EM part. When user go to the survey : LS don't have to search where is this HTML/tpl part, or this other HTML/tpl part. Find it always on runtime/tplname/.../answers.html (or tpl, not important). Cacahe management of template is done on admin part only ( for example redo whole runtime/tplname/ directory with template editor, or a button somewhere). But in fact : it's n,ot the actual purpose, maybe in 2.6. The actual purpose is only "do the best HTML in core". Update this HTML can be done after in another pull request.

	[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]]) OK, caching is beyond my capacities. I'll leave this for now. Let's focus on the other questions: how to make a good basic template as a basis to work on for spin offs. Peter Emil will contribute starting next Wednesday.		[[User:Tammo\|Tammo]] ([[User talk:Tammo\|talk]]) OK, caching is beyond my capacities. I'll leave this for now. Let's focus on the other questions: how to make a good basic template as a basis to work on for spin offs. Peter Emil will contribute starting next Wednesday.